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Kiwi makes an interesting point

FurBurger

What would you do for a Klondike bar?
Forum Clout
22,494
Shit, why not. From the look of it I don’t need to fill out any kind of forms, just ask and pay a few dollars for postage and photocopies, right?
As far as I can see, yes. That link from Proud Boy looks legit, and if not, here's the Chronicle saying the same thing.

Worst case they can just say no. Or they could write back and ask for a stupid amount of money; in which case post that letter, and we can tip off the IRS that they're hiding something...
 
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FurBurger

What would you do for a Klondike bar?
Forum Clout
22,494
Shit, why not. From the look of it I don’t need to fill out any kind of forms, just ask and pay a few dollars for postage and photocopies, right?
Hold off on that, it turns out they've filed their 2020 form with California and that's available. It could be they haven't filed 2021 anywhere yet, although the clock is ticking. Their Federal EIN is 46-1973968, and you can search California's records here.

It looks like they're filing their tax returns a year late, which seems dicey to me:
Status of Filing:Accepted
Accounting Period Begin Date:1/1/2019
Accounting Period End Date:12/31/2019
Filing Received Date:11/23/2020

Status of Filing:E-Accepted
Accounting Period Begin Date:1/1/2020
Accounting Period End Date:12/31/2020
Filing Received Date:11/12/2021

Pat filed suit on the 26th of January 2021, so it won't be in these returns, it'll be in the 2021 edition - which it looks like the SFWA won't file until December (which should lead to a paddlin' from the IRS, as I think you can only be a couple of months late)

Edit: Based on California's records they're filing six months late each time, and racking up a $20 a day fine. That's not nothing, it's burning six member's dues per month for no benefit.
 
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3,151
Hold off on that, it turns out they've filed their 2020 form with California and that's available. It could be they haven't filed 2021 anywhere yet, although the clock is ticking. Their Federal EIN is 46-1973968, and you can search California's records here.

It looks like they're filing their tax returns a year late, which seems dicey to me:
Status of Filing:Accepted
Accounting Period Begin Date:1/1/2019
Accounting Period End Date:12/31/2019
Filing Received Date:11/23/2020

Status of Filing:E-Accepted
Accounting Period Begin Date:1/1/2020
Accounting Period End Date:12/31/2020
Filing Received Date:11/12/2021

Pat filed suit on the 26th of January 2021, so it won't be in these returns, it'll be in the 2021 edition - which it looks like the SFWA won't file until December (which should lead to a paddlin' from the IRS, as I think you can only be a couple of months late)

Edit: Based on California's records they're filing six months late each time, and racking up a $20 a day fine. That's not nothing, it's burning six member's dues per month for no benefit.
990's are due on the 15th day after the fifth month of the nonprofit's fiscal year end. Most nonprofits get six month extensions from the IRS, which means nonprofits with 12/31 fiscal year ends usually file them in mid-November of the following calendar year. Don't expect any smoking guns in the 990. They're informational returns in nature so the IRS doesn't give a crap about them unless nonprofits don't file them on time because the IRS can then assess decent-sized penalties. Nonprofits can easily bury embarrassing info in them. (That CPA who prepares more than a dozen 990's per year)
 
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I don't see how a defamation suit defending one soft-skinned cunt helps any other writer; whether they won or lost the case, no precedent will have been set, and no other writer will have been helped.

This case does not match the guidelines set out by their "Grievance Committee" and seems to have been handed out against their rules by a couple of Pat's friends. Further, their rules state that it's a loan, not a gift.

If they've broken any of those rules, they're in shit with the IRS, as they're not really a charity if they're being run for the benefit of one (very fat) person.


They already arranged that with Amazon and Amazon-owned Goodreads; Pat's lolsuit had nothing to do with that.


There is; there's an IRS form (form 990) that they have to submit that details where the money went, and that's publicly available. Unfortunately, it looks like they've filed via paper form rather than instant e-filing (I wonder why?) and there's a two-year backlog putting those on the web. You can search for it here, though.


Gosh, I wonder if our beloved admin has had his lawyer pull a paper copy from the IRS?

Oh, the stories he's gonna tell once this is over....
According to the SFWA's website, the loans are only for members who have publishing-related disputes. That's why I think SFWA's funding of the lawsuit falls into the other category. SFWA obviously wouldn't foot the bill for Quasi's legal fees - hence the lien on the hovel. If the funding fell into that other category, Pat is definitely on the hook for Quasi's legal fees and whatever amount that SFWA didn't pay for Pat's attorneys.
 

FurBurger

What would you do for a Klondike bar?
Forum Clout
22,494
According to the SFWA's website, the loans are only for members who have publishing-related disputes. That's why I think SFWA's funding of the lawsuit falls into the other category. SFWA obviously wouldn't foot the bill for Quasi's legal fees - hence the lien on the hovel. If the funding fell into that other category, Pat is definitely on the hook for Quasi's legal fees and whatever amount that SFWA didn't pay for Pat's attorneys.
I still don't see how funding a defamation suit for one of their file-trading partners falls into "issues which are of importance to SFWA’s members and the business of writing". It's plainly not, and I don't believe a charity can just fork out $120k+ of money to an unrelated cause without consequence. Otherwise I'd set up a charity to pay my mortgage and living expenses, and route all my income through it. Call it the "Science Fiction And Fantasy Writers of America", because I'm inclusive like that.

Don't expect any smoking guns in the 990.
There's going to be a sudden $120k expense that they haven't had in previous years, and I've seen entries in previous SFWA 990s listing what those expenses were for (cons, etc.) That's nearly as much as they pulled in via membership dues in 2019.

(That CPA who prepares more than a dozen 990's per year)
Where would whoever you're talking about advise us to look? They have a $120k hole in their books, they need to account for it, and they can't mislabel it as "Adult Prostitutes" etc.

How do we find it?
 
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3,151
I still don't see how funding a defamation suit for one of their file-trading partners falls into "issues which are of importance to SFWA’s members and the business of writing". It's plainly not, and I don't believe a charity can just fork out $120k+ of money to an unrelated cause without consequence. Otherwise I'd set up a charity to pay my mortgage and living expenses, and route all my income through it. Call it the "Science Fiction And Fantasy Writers of America", because I'm inclusive like that.
I'm not saying it's right, but keep in mind that the IRS allowed the Church of Scientology to become a nonprofit so the bar is pretty low for becoming a nonprofit in the U.S.. There are plenty of shady nonprofits out there and they can spend money on just about anything that's somewhat related to their mission statements. They only get attention from the IRS if they spend a lot of money on lobbying efforts or if they pay the CEO's huge salaries.
There's going to be a sudden $120k expense that they haven't had in previous years, and I've seen entries in previous SFWA 990s listing what those expenses were for (cons, etc.) That's nearly as much as they pulled in via membership dues in 2019.


Where would whoever you're talking about advise us to look? They have a $120k hole in their books, they need to account for it, and they can't mislabel it as "Adult Prostitutes" etc.

How do we find it?
I'm that CPA who prepares more than a dozen 990's per year and I'll definitely go over SFWA's 2021 990 with a fine tooth comb after it's uploaded to guidestar.org. If it was a loan, it should show up on the balance sheet as a note receivable and it will stick out like a sore thumb. If it wasn't a loan or if the loan was forgiven, it should show up on the statement of functional expenses as assistance to domestic individuals and flow to Schedule I of the 990 as a legal or loan forgiveness expense. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if SFWA tries to bury the expense since they know we're going to be looking at the 990 and they really don't want us to know beyond a shadow of a doubt SFWA funded Pat's lawsuit that was intended to suppress our free speech. The public accounting firm that prepares SFWA's 990 only has to deem whether the info provided by SFWA for the 990 is reasonable and SFWA doesn't get an annual external audit so it's not like SFWA's 990's are based on audited numbers that are presented fairly in all material respects.
 

Harry Powell

Bruce is more helpful to Defendants than Plaintiff
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91,485
Exactly. If you have to be a lookout for something or you have to participate in something that's small potatoes you're just expected to go along with it. It's really not a big deal I mean you're terrified when you first go in (I know I was) but as long as you keep your head down and just do your time everything is fine.

The one cliche myth about prison that's true is when you first get there somebody is going to test you to see if you'll fight. Usually a nigger will try to befriend you and the second he gets into your cell he'll try to slam you against the wall and extort you for money. Hit him. You're probably going to get your ass kicked but hit him anyway. You want everybody to know that you're not afraid to fight. I actually had a guy come and take the TV remote out of my hand and change the channel while I was sitting there watching it. Everybody in the pod was watching us so I got up and punched him in the face. We went at it and he probably got more punches in than I did but it doesn't matter. The first punch I threw was me passing the test.
Won’t you get more time for this?
 

AntSucks

★ ★ ★ ★ ☆
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20,607
There's going to be a sudden $120k expense that they haven't had in previous years, and I've seen entries in previous SFWA 990s listing what those expenses were for (cons, etc.) That's nearly as much as they pulled in via membership dues in 2019.

Our only source for this $100K is Patrick himself which makes it immediately questionable. I don't see why his legal fees won't have been much more than Quasi has spent defending him. It doesn't cost $100K just to get to the filing a lawsuit stage, and he's using discount wine lawyers so the costs would be even less. I've been quoted about $10,000 to file a defamation suit when I phoned a few law offices before.

My theory is that this $100-120K amount is vastly exaggerated.
 

cliveowen

stlaker
Forum Clout
7,395
Our only source for this $100K is Patrick himself which makes it immediately questionable. I don't see why his legal fees won't have been much more than Quasi has spent defending him. It doesn't cost $100K just to get to the filing a lawsuit stage, and he's using discount wine lawyers so the costs would be even less. I've been quoted about $10,000 to file a defamation suit when I phoned a few law offices before.

My theory is that this $100-120K amount is vastly exaggerated.
Very good point. We know he lies and exaggerates about everything, so we shouldn't just take that number at face value.
 

FurBurger

What would you do for a Klondike bar?
Forum Clout
22,494
Our only source for this $100K is Patrick himself which makes it immediately questionable. I don't see why his legal fees won't have been much more than Quasi has spent defending him. It doesn't cost $100K just to get to the filing a lawsuit stage, and he's using discount wine lawyers so the costs would be even less. I've been quoted about $10,000 to file a defamation suit when I phoned a few law offices before.

My theory is that this $100-120K amount is vastly exaggerated.
Quasi had one lawyer, in one state, fighting two subpoenas. Pat had three lawyers - Brinton's boutique firm, which aren't cheap; Nicole in Wisconsin and The Blobfish in California. Once you start adding all those together, and the fucking dumbass back-and-forth they did arguing with people, and them taking on Kiwifarms, I can see how that might ratchet up to triple the costs Quasi had; particularly since Pat would want white-glove Rolls Royce service and SFWA were footing the bill. He had, what, five lengthy calls to Josiah? Imagine how much billable contact and hand-holding he racked up with Brinton.

EDIT: I found Minc Law's page on the subject, and they say:
Generally speaking, a reasonable cost expectation is that contested cases require an average monthly budget of around $4,000–$6,000. Therefore, a simple way to figure out costs is simply to multiply the average monthly cost above by the number of months the litigation might take to conclude.
$4k x 12 months is $48k; $6k is $72k. Throw in a couple of extra law firms, and the fact that he was fighting on multiple fronts, and I don't think $100k's out of the question
 
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FurBurger

What would you do for a Klondike bar?
Forum Clout
22,494
I'm not saying it's right, but keep in mind that the IRS allowed the Church of Scientology to become a nonprofit so the bar is pretty low for becoming a nonprofit in the U.S.
Having read a lot on Scientology over the years, that took a 30-year fight with members launching lawsuits against individual IRS employees - not the IRS, the guys that worked there - in every state of the Union. Their exact deal with the US government is still sealed by the courts. I don't think they're a good comparison.

I'm that CPA who prepares more than a dozen 990's per year and I'll definitely go over SFWA's 2021 990 with a fine tooth comb after it's uploaded to guidestar.org.
Thank you, that'd be great.

The public accounting firm that prepares SFWA's 990 only has to deem whether the info provided by SFWA for the 990 is reasonable and SFWA doesn't get an annual external audit so it's not like SFWA's 990's are based on audited numbers that are presented fairly in all material respects.
Is there any way to trigger such an audit? And have you ever seen a charity dump 20% of its revenue into a gift for one of its members before, and get away with it? It amounts to 2/3rds of their income from membership dues, which seems a lot.
 
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Having read a lot on Scientology over the years, that took a 30-year fight with members launching lawsuits against individual IRS employees - not the IRS, the guys that worked there - in every state of the Union. Their exact deal with the US government is still sealed by the courts. I don't think they're a good comparison.
They're not a good comparison to SFWA, but it just goes to show how lenient the U.S. is compared to other western countries when it comes to nonprofits. Less than twenty years after Operation Snow White was uncovered by the FBI, the Church of Scientology was able to get nonprofit status. There are plenty of nonprofits like the Clinton Foundation that spend only twenty percent of their contribution revenue on the reason why they're a nonprofit and the rest goes to management and general expenses. That alone should make a lot of nonprofits lose their tax-exempt status.
Is there any way to trigger such an audit? And have you ever seen a charity dump 20% of its revenue into a gift for one of its members before, and get away with it? It amounts to 2/3rds of their income from membership dues, which seems a lot.
Nonprofits get annual external audits from CPA firms for one of three reasons:
  • They spend more than $750,000 of federal grant money so an annual external audit is required by uniform guidance regulations
  • A big donor requires that the nonprofit gets an annual external audit
  • The nonprofit gets an annual external audit to show lenders, donors, or potential donors that the board and management takes its fiduciary duties seriously
I think the only way SFWA will pay for an external audit from a CPA firm is if donors and/or members demand it. You're probably talking more about an audit from the IRS. None of my nonprofit clients have ever been audited by the IRS. Only one of them has even received an information document request from the IRS and I think that's because the nonprofit received a huge contribution from a sketchy donor. The average Joe making 50K per year gets hassled by the IRS more in his lifetime than the average nonprofit. It's really messed up.
 

Udders

Great food
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46,925
Our only source for this $100K is Patrick himself which makes it immediately questionable. I don't see why his legal fees won't have been much more than Quasi has spent defending him. It doesn't cost $100K just to get to the filing a lawsuit stage, and he's using discount wine lawyers so the costs would be even less. I've been quoted about $10,000 to file a defamation suit when I phoned a few law offices before.

My theory is that this $100-120K amount is vastly exaggerated.
It adds up quick when you're paying for lawyers, paralegals, document production, etc., especially when you start spanning multiple states and law offices.

Most lawyers I know bill in 6-ish minute increments so any phone call, email, reading, research that's done is billed. And at 200-500 per hour per lawyer/paralegal, it ramps up rather quickly. That's why it's so funny that Pat paid Resto for 90 minutes to talk to @covidcumia.
 
G

guest

Guest
According to the SFWA's website, the loans are only for members who have publishing-related disputes. That's why I think SFWA's funding of the lawsuit falls into the other category. SFWA obviously wouldn't foot the bill for Quasi's legal fees - hence the lien on the hovel. If the funding fell into that other category, Pat is definitely on the hook for Quasi's legal fees and whatever amount that SFWA didn't pay for Pat's attorneys.
I think this is why they pushed the goodreads angle. The NYT article was only written due to SFWA campaigning for it. They'll say that trolls writing bad reviews on goodreads was preventing authors from getting published.
 

SensibleKeks

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Quasi had one lawyer, in one state, fighting two subpoenas. Pat had three lawyers - Brinton's boutique firm, which aren't cheap; Nicole in Wisconsin and The Blobfish in California. Once you start adding all those together, and the fucking dumbass back-and-forth they did arguing with people, and them taking on Kiwifarms, I can see how that might ratchet up to triple the costs Quasi had; particularly since Pat would want white-glove Rolls Royce service and SFWA were footing the bill. He had, what, five lengthy calls to Josiah? Imagine how much billable contact and hand-holding he racked up with Brinton.

EDIT: I found Minc Law's page on the subject, and they say:

$4k x 12 months is $48k; $6k is $72k. Throw in a couple of extra law firms, and the fact that he was fighting on multiple fronts, and I don't think $100k's out of the question
Besides subpoenaing Cloudflare, Pat's lawyers also subpoenaed encyclopedia dramatica, kiwifarms and google as well.
 
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