The theme of what you're saying seems to be "not guilty by association". I think that makes your first point where you say that i'm guilty by assocation and can't be trusted pretty ironic. Still, that's not the point here. There's a few things here i'll try to only touch on a little because I don't think it's the main point. Whatever Dan or Boomia says is also their own business and I have no input on the things they say. I'll accept that you don't like/trust me, especially after the SFWA has labeled me public enemy #1 after apostlegate. What I don't buy is not having me on to speak when you control the platform. You could have the attention of everyone in the SFWA turned on your podcast if I appeared on it, so i'm well aware this would be a good thing for you.
Let's see some part's of NAMBLA member Sam's book, HOGG.
"
When I was eleven, I used to suck off a kid named Pedro behind the bottom landing of the stairs that went to the basement. He was a sad-looking, thirteen-year-old spic who wore baggy pants I don't think he ever changed, and a white, short-sleeved shirt he put on fresh Sunday mornings; Saturday nights it was gray. Standing by the radiator, he would grind his sneakers on the gritty boards and rub the heel of his hand on the hard place over his groin. His knuckles were red from chewing. "You want it?" He'd dart around scared glances. "Come on, take it now. Go on, take it." His zipper was always half open.
Squatting, I'd nose between the brass teeth to smell his sweat. He would push penis, both testicles, and the two little fingers of his left hand into my mouth. Holding his thin hips, I troweled my tongue inside his foreskin, till, leaning and grunting, he would spurt his greasy juice and, quickly limp, a tablespoon of urine.
Once he told me, when I stood up, "You look funny down there. You really look funny."
There were two mattresses in the cellar already.
I helped him carry the third one down. Then he got his fifteen-year-old sister, Maria, made her lie on her back, pulled her new skirt up, her stained panties down, and wedged his chin between her thighs, his eyes blinking over her cunt hair. "Look at her." He lifted his head. "She giggle all the time like that. Anybody fuck on her and she giggle. You suck my dick while I eat it out her pussy, huh?"
-
Maria tried to grab me. As I got free, she said something in Spanish. Pedro hit her—he hit for her chin, but she twisted away and he just got her shoulder. He laughed. "Big, dumb cocksucker," he said. Maria sat up and pulled her skirt into her lap over her pussy. First I thought she wanted to cover herself, but she kept her fist there, as though it felt good. Or maybe it didn't."
Now, this shit was written by a NAMBLA member. This isn't even some of the worst parts, it's literally about a paid rape service, eating shit, molesting children and not taking showers. Your claims that "he isn't a nambla member anymore, he doesnt know what they do now" are absurd. NAMBLA was founded for the sole purpose of man boy love and it's purpose has not changed.
If I told you I was a KKK member 15 years ago, but I don't know what they do these days.. would you assume I thought they had stopped hating blacks and reformed?
Read these lines, Eric. This is what Grandmasters consider LEGENDARY writing. It's what President Steven Gould, President John Scalzi, President Cat Rambo all publicly praised. Delaney is constantly featured in SFWA material and was even featured on the awards website last May. This is the writing that Lackey was praising as GROUNDBREAKING when she called the man a colored..all the SFWA members were tweeting about how awesome this book was in May.. the rape of children.
You said, "Yes, I do consider publicly praising a NAMBLA member's rape fiction to be grounds for me to be suspicious of your sexual activity." By that logic, anyone who praises James Patterson should be suspected of being a serial killer. Anyone who praises Mario Puzo should be considered a potential member of the Mafia. Anyone who praises Tom Clancy should be thought of as a possible spy. I call bullshit.
Let's save some more time and agree that "Hogg" and "Valley of the Nest of Spiders" are not examples of great literature. But we both know full well that Delany is not celebrated for these. He's celebrated for Babel-17, The Einstein Intersection, Nova, Dhalgren, Tales of Neveryon, and Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand. I dare you to find anything wrong with those books, and I'll die on that hill.
Now, you quote some of the disgusting shit from "Hogg," and conclude that such fiction must mean that Delany is a current NAMBLA member. Again, by that logic, that means that J.K. Rowling is a real witch, or Anne Rice was really a vampire. Come on!
While Hogg and Nest of Spiders are truly disgusting, they are FICTION. And while the author who wrote such fiction has a truly twisted mind that ventures off into horrifying territory (and oh, how we agree on that one!) these are still FICTIONS. As gross as Delany's thoughts are, there is a HUGE difference between thinking a thought and doing a deed. There is even a world of difference between writing such a thought and doing the deed. You accuse Delany of doing a deed. I say you have zero evidence of that. You have evidence he thinks such dark thoughts (and plenty of that!), but there's no law against thinking, no matter what twisted shit people think about. Nor should there be.
You say you find a double standard in my "guilt by association" standard between yourself and the trolls, and SF and pedophiles? I think you're confusing "guilt by past association" with "guilt by current association." I think we agree that the sci fi community has had its difficulties in the past. I argue they've grown past that. By contrast, your association with trolls is about as current as it gets.
And you believe my control of the forum should make me unafraid to bring you onto my podcast as a guest? Yeah, I might get the attention of everyone in SFWA if you appeared on my podcast, but not for the right reasons. And as you say, I control the forum. You asked, and I said no. That's the end of it.
I would note here that I'm offering to go anywhere to debate this live, but you don't want to do that. I'm not allowed on your podcast that you use to speak about my work. That's all within your right, i'm just making clear where we stand.
I don't think it's bullshit that if someone is publicly praising pedophilia that I should be suspicious of them. Your comparisons don't flow logically. It would be more like if John Wayne Gacy wrote IT. In real life, the man was a clown murderer. If I went around dressing like a clown and praising Gacy, I wouldn't blame you for looking at me sideways.
Look sideways at Samuel Delany all you like. I think he's an odd duck, too. But I draw a distinct line between thinking a thought or writing a story about it, and doing an actual deed. You have plenty of evidence Delany thinks fucked up thoughts. You could reasonably condemn him for that. But that was not your original claim. You claimed he was a pedophile outright, and we have zero evidence of that.
I'll close by saying again what I've said to other trolls: Milwaukee is my home. Science fiction is my jam. It's rude for people to tell me what to do in my own back yard.
Yeah, I hear you loud and clear. You think it's cool to be in NAMBLA and write about horrific child rape as long as you don't have government convictions. You don't think that joining THE NORTH AMERICAN MAN BOY LOVE ASSOCIATION makes you a pedophile.
I should also note that Tomlinson's lawyer Brinton Resto swore under oath (and on video) that he has no reason to think any of us are not from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. As far as i'm concerned i'm legally your neighbor.
Don't tell me what I think. For the umpteenth time, I do NOT think it's fine to be in NAMBLA, government conviction or not. I don't know how much clearer I can be about that.
From what strange, alternate dimension did you get the notion that I thought it was "cool" to be in NAMBLA?!
I think *Nova* is cool. I think *Tales of Neveryon* is cool. I think *Stars
in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand* is cool. But NAMBLA? No. We both already
agreed that NAMBLA is gross and horrific. We already agree that Delany has
some music to face regarding this. Do you hear me? WE ALREADY AGREE.
Our *remaining* difference of opinion is simple:
For you, membership in NAMBLA, however brief, constitutes actual pedophelia.
MY definition of pedophilia, on the other hand, is an adult having sex with
a minor.
You think belonging to a group that advocates something automatically means
doing that advocated thing.
I say, not necessarily. It's entirely possible, however rare, to be an NRA
member and never fire a gun. Or be a member of an equestrian club and never
ride a horse. Delany might have once belonged to NAMBLA out of a sense of
solidarity with the gay community back when, in the early '90's, being gay
was still considered just as sexually deviant as pedophelia for many
people. (We're old enough to remember the '80's and '90's. We both know
that's absolutely true, especially during the AIDS scare.)
Your definition of pedophelia includes posting a Twitter photograph of a
father and a son at a sex party. Mine does not.
Your definition includes policing an individual's *thoughts*. Mine only
includes policing an individual's *deeds*.
Even in the face of Delaney posting a father son friend incest 3 way, you won't say he's a pedophile. It's because you're a fucking creep dude. There is no defense of your bullshit, you're clearly willing to go to great lengths to defend pedophilia. We don't agree, your inability to call this shit is disgusting. It's telling that you tried to defend a literal nambla member with Harry Potter.
Now, all this shit where you keep telling me I'm a subhuman is pissing me off. I've tried to keep this open, but you just can't help but call me demeaning shit over and over. So that's it. This is finished and I'm now in charge of Starship Fonzie's public relations department.
I said that those who deface the memorials of the dead are even lower than pedophiles and I meant it. It's an empirical fact that your friends in the OnA Forums are guilty of doing this. If you chose to believe that this amounts to me calling you "subhuman," that's on you. From the very onset I told you that I judged you based on the company you keep. Did you think I was kidding? If you don't want to feel dirty, get out of the pig pen.
A DRAWING? Seriously? A DRAWING?
Next you'll argue that it's an image based on an actual snapshot, and I'll ask for proof, which you naturally won't have. Well, I did ask that you present the image, which you did, so thanks for following through. But honestly, why did you even bother making the argument when you knew you didn't have the goods to deliver?
I agree, we're done. But you're not in charge of anybody's PR department (unless PR stands for "phony reporter"). Then again, I predicted this ending over the last two emails. I'm sure you'll put this all out on Apostlegate.net somewhere, but I'll put all these correspondences on my blog as well. Your irrationality will be on full display.
Part 2 will include the tomlinson debate, discussing the SFWA and anything else interesting/relevant enough to make it. This should have just been a 30 minute conversation on a podcast, instead now I have to head an entire public relations department. Hildeman talked down to me a lot and I was VERY INJURED.
We're two guys who think posting to an online obituary isn't worse than raping a child!
It's the Chris and Tommy show! The Chris and Tommy show!
